Why Showing Up 4x on Google Is the New SEO Goal with Rob Claybon Leann Pickard and Steve King

Ranking #1 on Google isn’t enough anymore. In this Lawyer Mastermind Podcast episode, Casey, Rob, Leann, and Steve dive into how personal injury firms can drive real growth through brand strategy, community engagement, PPC, LSAs, and smart SEO. It’s all about strategy, intent, and connecting with real people. The team also explores content quality, zero-click searches, accident blogging, and why consistency beats chasing trends.

💡 Watch now to move beyond rankings and build real marketing momentum!

Chapters:

00:00 – Intro: Why Ranking #1 Isn’t Enough in 2025

00:39 – Rob’s Take: Full-Page Visibility Beats Just Ranking First

01:42 – Diversifying Strategies: SEO, PPC, LSAs & Google Maps

02:29 – Strategy Over Rankings: How to Really Win in PI Marketing

03:58 – Real Estate on SERPs: The Importance of Visibility

04:29 – Keyword Strategy: Going Beyond “Car Accident Lawyer”

05:30 – Budget-Based Targeting: Long-Tail vs. Competitive Terms

07:13 – Branding & PPC: Protecting and Growing Local Presence

08:45 – Zero-Click Searches & the Rise of AI Overviews

11:00 – Informational vs. Transactional Content Explained

13:06 – Content Audit: Focus on What Converts, Not Just Traffic

14:00 – Accident Blogging: High-Intent, Sensitive Strategy

17:15 – Emotional Connection: Content That Converts, Not Just Ranks

19:43 – StoryBrand Marketing: Messaging That Resonates

21:27 – Humanizing Marketing: Authenticity Over AI Automation

23:07 – Final Takeaways: ROI, Quality Leads & Better Content

26:45 – Key Advice: Stick With Strategy, Avoid the Shiny Object Trap

27:20 – Action Items: What to Do If Your Firm Is Plateauing

30:51 – Share Your Wins: Using Client Success Stories in Marketing

 #PersonalInjuryMarketing #LawFirmSEO #LegalMarketing #SEO #PPC #GoogleRanking

Transcript

Casey

Hello, and thank you for joining the Lawyer Mastermind podcast. Today I am joined by some very special guests. We have Rob, Leann, and Steve, thank you for joining me today. 

Rob

Happy to be here. 

Leann

Happy to be here.

Steve

Thanks for having us, Casey.

Casey

Of course. So this is a new format for us, but we have a very interesting topic and that is why ranking number one isn't enough anymore just to set the stage. Rob, you came in this morning, we started having a discussion. You said something I've been hearing just to be more vulnerable is that people saying ranking number one isn't enough anymore. Can you start it off with some context for us?

Rob

Sure. Let me set the stage. The holy grail of digital marketing is to show up, I believe four times on the first page. That's the aspiration. We have an LSA ad, I have a PPC ad. We're ranking number one in Google Maps and we're ranking number one in organic. If we're doing that, you are doing fantastically. That's what people typically go for, right? But what we're seeing with a lot of our clients is we can get them ranking number one on organic, but that's it. And then a lot of their competitors, they're doing LSA ads, PPC ads, and we've seen conversions drastically increase when you're at least appearing twice on the first page. That's a fantastic start, but then it gets even better as it continues and you add a third and you add a forth. So changing the game is more competition comes into the arena, and that's why it's important to really kind of diversify what you're doing.

Rob
You don't want to just focus on organic listings, you want organic, you want Google Maps, and if you have the ad spend, like LSAs and PPCs is a great way and they all compliment each other very well. That's what we're seeing there, which just makes it a little bit more harder, but a little bit more fun too because now you're starting to integrate all of these strategies like, okay, we have organic maps or we have local SEO, we have that strategy going. We have organic SEO, we have that strategy going. We have PPC, we have that strategy going, and then we have LSA, that strategy going. For me when it comes to marketing just to get well, when you start to integrate all of the strategies in one cohesive direction, that's when the beauty starts. 

Casey

You know, that makes sense. We were talking in a previous episode that even years ago, in some ways SEO hasn't changed because barnacle SEO or Share of Search being in multiple places has always been key, and that sounds like it's more important here and it will be more important with LLMs. And Steve, I have a question for you. Have you seen clients come to you or potential prospects and say, “Hey, I want to be number one, but they're coming to you with something very specific. I only want to be number one in organic.”

Steve

Yeah, so it really depends on the client. So those folks that come in and they're really hyper-focused on Google Maps or they're hyper-focused on PPC and they want to, I always want to be number one in PPC, sometimes they are really hyper-focused on organic. It tends to relate a lot to what they have keyed in as to what the keyword is that they want to rank for. And it can be kind of funny sometimes because they'll have a keyword that they're set on rank that's something that doesn't really have search volume. So that's part of our job, right? To reign them in and educate a little bit and show here's a cluster of terms that you should be going after and you should also be trying to get in. You want more visibility. Exactly what Rob's saying on the search engine results page. Google keeps pushing down organic results too, and you want more visibility. You want to be able to show up as high as possible and then throughout the page, I think it resonates with people when they see you. Maybe they don't click a PPC ad. I don't click a lot of PPC ads, but if I see, oh, if you've got a PPC ad, oh, you've got an LSA, oh, you're in the map pack, you subconsciously, these folks are doing it, right? They're obviously dominating here. This is probably somebody I want to talk to. 

Casey

And you're only clicking competitor PPC ads, right? Just kidding.

Steve

Occasionally.

Leann

I like to relate it to real estate. So, you want as much real estate on that page as possible. So you own more houses, you rent them out, you get more money, right? Versus just one. 

Steve

Absolutely 

Leann
So, as much as you show up on that page for all of the places and you're eventually going to get a click or more, you know. 

Casey

What's your thought for brand searches though too? Should you just be looking at these target keywords? If I'm a personal injury lawyer, do I only need to be a car accident lawyer? Or what about my brand or other ones? I

Leann

I think you're going to waste a lot of money in those key terms. I would probably tackle what everybody else isn't doing. What people are actually searching. Yes, car accidents is good, but if they're searching those things, PPC wise, LSA wise, they're researching versus wanting to buy. So, I think long tail keywords are.

Steve

Interesting. Can you elaborate on that? 

Casey

I'm going to disagree with that as well. 

Leann

Okay. 

Steve

So, if somebody is searching, give me an example term.

Leann

Let's say personal injury lawyer.

Steve

Okay.

Leann

If you're on the highway or if you're searching for a family member. A lot of those terms or a lot of the research, PPC wise. So, I think if you're going to type in personal injury lawyer, it's not specific enough. People are just looking for someone, they're doing their research more than calling someone. I would say that's different for Google My Business. So if you're on the highway searching for somebody and you're pulling up that search with GMB, I think it matters. But if you're clicking on organic, like you’re on your computer typing in personal injury lawyer, you're researching.

Casey

What's your take on that? Rob, do you agree with that or disagree?

Rob

You know, I feel like we have a table divided here, so I'm going to support Leann with this one.

Casey

Okay.

Leann

Oh, okay. You don't have to. 

Casey
Either way. 

Rob
I think there's different strategies for everything, right? If we're talking to a client that has a hundred thousand dollars a month to spend, I would say go after that personal injury lawyer. I'd say go after those car accidents. But if we're talking with someone who's just getting on their feet and they're in a competitive market, there could be some cheaper keywords elsewhere that you can look at to try out. 

Casey

Yeah.

Rob

Get that wheel spinning and then hopefully we can aspire to be a competitive bidder in the PC world for those.

Leann

I mean if your budget's $50,000 a month plus, sure go after the personal injury lawyer.

Casey

So your approach was saying don't do it if you were thinking about smaller law firms. I was just trying to understand the context.

Leann

Yeah, I think it's the strategy and the budget. If you have a low budget, you're not willing to spend a lot. You want to spend more money on SEO, you don't want to spend more money on PPC, you need to go long tail keywords. Even outside of Houston market or a big city, you want to target smaller cities and long tail keywords.

Casey

Yeah.

Leann

But I mean, if you have as much money as you want and you're going to put that into PPC, sure go after the personal injury lawyer, but you're going to really like.

Casey

Yeah. I mean if your budget is unlimited, you should just literally be everywhere all the time, right?

Leann

Yeah.

Casey

If you could make those economics work, I think most firms would struggle with that. But at the end of the day, you're right, when it comes to strategy because law firm owners care about signing the right cases that they want. They're going to help grow their firm or help change people's lives, help them get back on their feet. And so in the sense rankings don't even matter. It's your strategy that matters.

Rob

I mean, at the end of the day, all they care about is getting leads and signing cases.

Casey

Yeah. Well, good leads that turn cases.

Rob

Yeah, I added that last part because that’s important. And then to go back to your branding, should we have a branding campaign? I do believe you should always have a branding campaign. People are always trying to poach keywords and what's the point of building your brand in a local area to where people search it and then other companies are coming in putting your name out there. I'm not sure if Google still allows this, but they can put your name, put your brand. 

Casey

Unless it's trademark

Rob

As a keyword.

Casey

Oh, as a keyword. Yeah, you can do it. 

Rob

And then they're appearing and stealing all of the brand work that you did. I believe you should always have a branding campaign for PPC because one, it's going to be cheap for you. Google's not going to charge you a lot if it's your brand. And two, just to protect yourself from those other scrappy law firms out there.

Leann

I think the other piece too is a lot of lawyers run billboard ads or TV ads, so if they see your name, they're going to Google it. So, you're going to show up with that brand campaign.

Casey

And you should see brand growth too over time. And you know, I've talked about it repeatedly on this podcast, but people like to do business with who they know, like, or trust. And at the end of the day, I think it's shortsighted for anybody to get into any type of marketing without focusing on your brand or building your brand over time. Otherwise you are held hostage by whatever marketing channel too. Google does an algorithm update or whatever. They have more AI into how they're displaying paid results, whatever it is. There's always going to be a challenge.

Rob

Yeah, absolutely.

Casey

But if people know you, maybe a little bit less. So, Rob, do you know much about zero click searches?

Rob

Tell me about zero click searches.

Casey

Okay. So zero click searches now is what we're seeing I think in a lot of those AIOs, the AI overviews where, or maybe just even in Local Pack too, where people are doing the search, but they're not actually clicking through to the website.

Casey

Maybe they see the phone number and they're dialing that or whatever, or they're getting that information. Have you heard or seen any effective type of stuff in a negative way or positive way?

Rob

Yeah. I think everyone has their opinion on this. So I'm here to give mine. You know, having the AI generated overview, I mean, it's definitely reduced the informational organic clicks to your website. That's how I feel. But do I think that it's had a negative impact on it? I don't believe so, because I know my wife, I know myself when I see an AI overview, I get the quick overview and that's informational, but usually I want a little bit more. So then I go ahead, click the little thumbnail right next to it and get information there. But for me, it really made me double down on the more transactional pages as well and really highlighted the importance of those transactional pages. Like a year ago before the AI overviews and before all of this, informational would drive traffic to your website and it would produce really good conversions, but it's also a feel good metric. We want to see traffic to a website increase. It's kind of slowed that down a little bit, but it's absolutely refocused my brain on, you know what? I love seeing that feel good metric, but these transactional pages are very important and we need to focus on these. And they may not be getting hundreds of visitors per month, but.

Casey

Still signing cases.

Rob

Yeah, they're still signing cases, which is the important part. So you know, ‘comes back’ maybe this is going to be my motto, it comes back to strategy, just identifying like, oh, this is what's going on in the environment. I'm not going to always do what I did last year. We need to adapt and look at what's going on and change the strategy a little bit.

Steve

That's part of digital marketing. 

Rob

Yeah, that's how I feel about it.

Steve

Just for the general listener, tell me the difference between transactional and informational. When you're talking about, so you're talking pages on a website and Rob's referring to two different types of pages, a transactional page and an informational page. 

Rob

Alright,so.

Leann

Not on the spot at all.

Rob

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean at the end of the day it's all about intent really. So, you have transactional intent and you have informational intent. For me, my house is just going through a major DIY project. I have a lot of questions, but I'm not particularly looking to buy things like, oh, is this thing hanging from the chandelier? Okay, that's informational because really I'm just looking for help on this.

Steve

So that might be a blog post.

Rob

Yes, exactly. But I'm looking at the wall and I see, oh, I need this special tool to fix the drywall, right? I need to find this tool and buy it. That's a transactional coming back from the law firm arena, going back to our PPC conversation really quick, like a personal injury lawyer, someone looking specifically for a personal injury lawyer, they most likely need a personal injury lawyer right now. And that's a transactional versus, you know, someone thinking or wondering if they have a case for like a lawsuit, they might be looking up, oh, what's the average settlement for a slip and fall on ice? Or something like that.

Steve

Sure.

Rob

So, they're a little higher on the conversion funnel than someone that is specifically looking for, I need a lawyer to help me right now. 

Casey

Yeah. 

Rob

Did I do well with that?

Steve

You know, that was perfect. I just want to get a little clarity on it.

Casey

Well, you bring up something else though too, but you talked about intent. So many people are like, oh, I do SEO or I'm going to create content, and they're creating content that doesn't have that intent and thus it doesn't have the ability to rank even a problem that you're working through our own Juris Digital, Steve, like we've created a lot of content over the years, and as Google's gotten better on intent, the pages we want to rank are not the ones ranking. So we have to go in and do that.

Steve

Yeah. And I think that's good for anybody, especially if you've been cultivating your content on your website for a long time to go review that, see what's getting traffic, see what's ranking, what's getting clicks, what's bringing people to the site. And if you have a lot of pages that aren't bringing people to the site, it's worth considering either a massive overhaul to that page or just cutting it from the fat.

Casey

Yeah. Obviously there's a lot of SEO tips and tricks and things like that we can discuss, but I'm going to bring it back one more time to strategy. I was just thinking between that and intent and if you have a strategy, everybody's going after a car accident lawyer, personal injury lawyer, but what about accident blogging or things like that? Have we seen any intent from that?

Leann

I would say huge. Yeah. I mean in the PPC world, I think even with some of the clients,

Casey

Would you do that in the PPC? I'm curious.

Leann

Accident blogging?

Casey

Yeah. 

Leann

Accident blogging.

Casey

Because there's no PPC.

Rob

Can you explain what accident blogging you are referencing?

Casey

Yeah. The accident vlogging I'm referencing would be, let's say that we're creating content after a major accident that happened on a freeway in your city and maybe providing attorney's initial perspective on that. And because people are searching that, aren't they? 

Rob

Maybe. Steve, this one has been brought up. I think it started with Matt and then it went to Casey, then it went to you, then it went to me, and I was just. 

Steve

It started the chain yesterday. 

Rob

Yeah, yeah. So, I'm going to let you take this one.

Steve

So, accident reporting I think is something that has to be done with real intention. You need to be on top of it every day, getting an alert from Google and then posting about that accident. And some thought behind it too, where these are real people involved in this accident. You want to be sensitive, you want to have, a lot of times we'll put an option to, “Hey, reach out if you want us to take this post down.” This is about you or a family member or something like that. But recently we have seen a lot of leads come from really consistent accident blogging, and that's a good example, Casey, of something that's a little bit outside the box strategy that's not, you know, I'm sure other people do this strategy, but it's not a common. When you go look at a list of what's the key to SEO for 2025 for lawyers, that's probably not going to be on there. Yeah, they're going to tell you to put photos on your Google Business Profile and that a lot of people already know. So I think it's really good to have strategy aspects that are not that just kind of cookie cutter. Everybody's doing the exact same thing.

Leann

I think with accident blogging, it is still about the intent and strategy from the people putting it out. We don't want to be ambulance chasers of getting every accident, throwing it up there, but it's actually caring about the people involved and reaching out as a resource to them versus just slapping the accident up and expecting a lead.

Casey

Providing actual help.

Leann

Yeah. So like, actually caring about the client and wanting them because we care about the accident.

Steve

Yeah, we can help you or the attorney. 

Leann

So, I think there's Intent and strategy of round accident blogging, and same with a lot of times people have in the past put up PPC or advertising due to a specific accident. I don't encourage that unless it's in a big city because everybody's going after those. But in a small town where there's only a few lawyers and stuff, I think it's completely acceptable in certain situations. And the content that's written and the strategy behind it, I think it's appropriate, but I just don't think everybody slapping it up and sorry about your family member here.

Casey

Yeah, and I think this is a good segue too, because you're talking about, we've talked about people want to work with businesses they know or trust your reputation's on the line. If you're being shitty, if you're being an asshole or doing stuff like that, that's going to come back to bite you. And the segue that I have here is kind of talking about, you said ranking number one isn't enough anymore, but ranking, how important is that? Obviously it's important that people find you, but I would also argue that if you are ranking number two for example, but your message is just on point to the type of cases that you want to get to the people that have experienced that accident, you're going to see more conversions than the page that is ranking number one that was just written for bots.

Rob

Absolutely. I've worked with the department on this. Number one, I'm going to just take it up one level and just the title of the page, the way that you frame the title of the page, you can be number three, but if that title is a hundred percent free consultation so on, and it's catchy, versus

Personal injury lawyer Los Angeles, a hundred percent free consultation, people are going to see that and most likely click on that. I've had a lot of success just getting up to the top three and then making a catchy title and going there. But to go to your point, if you click on that Personal Injury Lawyer Los Angeles, and you go to a robotic page, no one's going to feel inspired to actually convert, right? But that's going down a whole nother conversion optimization, developing a page that connects with the visitor and tells them how you can help them and then gives them a hint of the outcome that can come. So yeah, you're absolutely right, Casey. You can't just make a robotic page and be an SEO. And going back to Leann's point about you don't want to be crappy. You know, I'm very competitive and I can definitely get caught up in like I need my strategy to work. I need to rank number one, but then I start listening to some of the calls that are coming in.

Rob

These are real people that are at one of their lowest points in the world, and it's like a slap in the face of reality of like yes, we need to connect them with the best person possible. And it brings me back to the whole emotional side of it, and it makes me do a better job of marketing, not just trying to beat the other law firm. I'm trying to connect these people to the right person. And I think that's really important going back to your point, you can't just rank number one, you need to connect with someone and then show them how you can get them to the right person.

Casey

Sure.

Leann

I think that's the whole point like real business.

Rob

Yeah, real marketing. 

Leann

StoryBrand approach. We want to get cases and all of that. But I think shifting a little bit like StoryBrand through SEO and website design and all of that, I think that really brings, I guess substance to in a story and engaging people back into what the law firm's trying to do and connect with them and actually really care. I think one of the things I love about our clients is they actually care. They're not just trying to get the next case. Sure, they want cases, they want to grow their firm, but they actually genuinely are good lawyers

Casey

And obviously we love to do that. I think that as a whole, I'm taking responsibility for this as well because I've done some things in the past in SEO that I'm not proud of. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit for personal injury firms or really any firm out there right now on that side of things because they are so focused on just ranking that they actually kind of table everything else. And you see a lot of websites that just rank and you see nobody's focusing on their message, whereas if they're already getting that traffic, it's a low-hanging fruit where you could take the StoryBrand approach, put that type of emphasis on it, and really stand out and build a brand that people will engage. They'll come to know you, they'll engage with you. Yeah. So I don't really know where I was going with that, but it was just.

Steve

We have a consistent theme going across a few episodes of that brand thing. 

Leann

It’s brand, strategy and intent

Steve

Yeah, being a. 

Casey
Not just shitty s somebody, not just spamming the internet. 

Leann

We actually care

Steve

Being real people that somebody wants to work with. I think that's important.

Leann

I think that's a message to SEOs out there too.

Casey

To any digital marketer.

Leann

It's not just about ranking, but there has to be some care behind

Casey

That's more important than ever.

Leann

Yeah, I think it's more important. Now, AI can do a lot of things. It can do that, but if you're not a human behind it, you've heard me say this before,

Casey

You are humans.

Leann

If you're not a human behind what you're doing, does it matter? And it can do it to a degree, but there has to be a quality check and a relationship piece. And I think that just exists in human nature.

Casey

It does. And that's again, the race to the bottom with people that are using AI lazily. I love using AI, but I do think whatever you're using it for, it should be a tool to get you closer to excellence versus just doing the low hanging fruit. And that's what we're getting spammed across right now. And it's so exhausting seeing that crap for me.

Leann

I mean, at least Google's recognizing it.

Casey

So I think that kind of brings it full circle. But to end here, I kind of want to ask each and every one of you individually here, what is the biggest mistake that I think firms make if they're only focused on ranking number one? Or what should they be focused on otherwise, if you can't rank number one?

Rob

This is the last time I sit across from you because I have to answer all these questions first.

Leann

You have to.

Casey

So, to wrap.

Rob

Yeah.

Casey

We go to Steve? Who's ready?

Steve

I'm ready. 

Rob

Okay, let's go to Steve.

Steve

The most important thing to be doing is to not be focusing on your rankings, but to be focusing on, I want to say your ROI. But you have to understand too that if you've just started SEO, the ROI is going to come a little bit later sometimes, but you want to be focusing on your overall investment and are you making traction? And by looking in the right places, you're looking at, are my phone calls increasing? Am I getting more visibility in the community? Am I getting more branded searches like we talked about? These are all to me more important than just tracking that ranking. You're going to drive yourself crazy if you're every day you're looking at, you're waking up and you're checking your ranking in the morning, and you might not be getting accurate information. This happens all the time when you're searching from your office and like we've talked about in the past, Casey, it's so proximity based. And there might be they're tailoring a search to you. There's dozens of reasons why you might not be seeing the real picture of your ranking when you're looking at it. And then if you're obsessing over the ranking every day and then it does hit top two or top three and your leads don't change, what have you spent all that time focusing on those rankings for? And what are you going to do then? What's the plan then if that happens?

Casey

Okay.

Leann

I think for me it's quality. Sure, ROI and all the things I think are very relevant and very important, but one piece of really good qualitative piece of content can go a long way. The quality of leads that are coming in. So if you're running a PPC campaign, but you may have signed one case that was a million dollar case, but I dunno, I think it's all about quality. And if you're a personal injury lawyer, one case can pay for the whole year. So it's not about the clicks, it's not about all the cases. Are the calls good? Are the form fill?

Casey

The right case.

Leann

Yeah. Are the form fills quality or is the content written by your team or by an agency quality? Is it good quality?

Casey

Is it written for your audience too? 

Steve

You have to be careful about the quality things.

Leann

Quality. Well, you know. 

Steve

It needs the quality, you're right. But it does need to be readable for the general audience. We were talking about that we're

Leann

Not going to keyword stuff, so I still.

Steve

Not even keyword stuff, but in the legal realm, attorneys can attend to the things that they write on a daily basis, briefs or whatever it might be, are incredibly complex. And sometimes we'll see that transfer over where the attorney wants their content to be really make sure they know that I'm the best by writing all this fancy,

Casey

The best editor.

Steve

All this legal stuff. When your audience goes to that and they're like, what is this? I don't understand it.

Leann

I guess what I mean, quality is.

Steve

Yeah, you're right on.

Leann

Obviously good rankings for Google that it recognizes what's being written, but we're not just shoving things up, you know but quality pieces are going to bring in attention.

Casey

Yeah.

Leann

Quality pieces that's going to get results.

Leann

Then listening to those phone calls, listening to whoever's taking those calls in. Are the calls good? Is your intake system good? Those matter, those are the things that are going to bring in ROI. And those are the things that are going to make a difference in the end game. It's not about rankings.

Steve

If your agency's getting you calls or your in-house team or whoever's doing your digital marketing is getting you calls and your intake team isn't handling the calls well, that's a huge breakdown in your process.

Leann

Yeah, that's why I personally make quality. It's different in the SEO world, but it’s my definition. Okay Rob, you're up.

Rob

All right. 

Casey

Now you got to be last. 

Rob
Yeah. Now can you repeat the question? I already forgot it. So I think I'm just going to take it one step back. I was just having flashbacks of when I was just a young budding entrepreneur and not really sure what to do. And YouTube and friends and competition all were telling me, you have to do this to be successful, you have to do this to be successful, you have to do this to be successful. And I was trying to be successful in a straight line, but I started to chase what I was supposed to do, and I was very wishy-washy and I didn't give strategies a long enough time to grow and materialize. So, I think it's really important to talk to an expert.

Casey

Yeah.

Rob

Someone that actually knows marketing. I think we all take this for granted now because our world, and this is our space, but we're constantly being told different strategies. There's so many different strategies out there, and if you jump from one strategy to another too quickly, you're not going to go anywhere. So my biggest thing is just getting a strategy that is going to work over time and sticking with it. And sure you can compliment that strategy and adjust it based on how you're doing, but always continue going forward with the strategy that you know is going to work and then try to hit a few home runs every once in a while. 

Casey

Sure. 

Rob

Go for it.

Casey

I love that.

Rob

Yeah, just don't jump around.

Casey

Okay.

Rob

Be consistent.

Casey

Alright, that's great advice. And I totally agree with that, and that's something that I struggle with because for me, I love reading, I love taking information, but at the end of the day, the information isn't really what's going to set you apart. It's that action. So, let's do one last round table here and everybody kind of just come up. If you had just one must action item for attorneys that they can do who feel stuck, what's one thing that they could do? And then we'll kind of close out the episode. And if it's easier, I can put myself on the spot and start. You go first.

Leann

So if they feel stuck, this is one thing.

Casey

Yeah, if your firm's growing up, you've had a lot of success, but now you've kind of plateaued, what's one thing that you can do? And the thing that I'm going to talk about is just being listed everywhere. It's kind of like the topic of this podcast. I'm sorry to take the easy way out here, guys, but the reality is you do want to be everywhere you can be. And I'm talking about directories, I'm talking about all that stuff because there's a different piece that I'm looking at here. It's not ranking. It's that there's all these large language models like ChatGPT or Gemini, and they're training from sources. So if you are recording YouTube videos and doing FAQs and putting that up there, that not only shows up in search results, but maybe these models are being trained on it. So just getting that brand out there, that voice and being everywhere you can is the action item. Not entirely specific, but there you go.

Steve

I think for me, my action item, and I feel like I'm beating a dead horse a little bit. I've been talking about this a lot, but it's getting involved in your community. And I know that doesn't seem like, well, that's not digital marketing.

Casey

You didn't talk about that this time.

Steve

Yeah, not yet. But getting involved in your community can be a huge part of your digital marketing because you're naturally going to start to get mentions online from local groups, local organizations, that kind of thing. And it's also going to go back to that building your brand. You're involved in the community. People are going to recognize you. If you strike a chord with folks in your community, you're going to get Google reviews just because of that. They're going to, “Hey, this law firm was great. They hosted this whatever event it was, and I thought it was really awesome that they were involved.” You're going to get reviews from that. You're going to get mentions from that. You're going to, it's going to pay dividends long term.

Casey

As Will Reynold said a long time ago, real business shit. But a lot of people don't think about the connection between offline and online. And really there's a huge connection there, which we'll discuss in a different episode. I'll just keep talking forever. 

Steve

Yeah.

Casey

Leann, you're on the spot.

Leann

Okay. I think for me it's communication and transparency. It's definitely something I try to live and breathe, if you like it or don't.

Casey

So, what's the action item?

Leann

Transparency and communication. If you feel plateaued, being transparent with where you're at with your financials, or are you getting cases? How many are you signing those pieces and communicating it. Because a lot of times I've seen law firms not do that. They're not being transparent with that information. So things may have plateaued or they think they're plateauing. I would say within the law firm or where your case is or with an agency I think just in general, communicating how many cases you're getting or what you need. And being transparent with that data or those numbers so that you can actually work with it versus just quitting or not talking about it and quitting with an agency, or you're getting frustrated because you don't know what to do, we can't help or people can't help without communication and transparency.

Casey

Obviously, if you're tracking it, you'll know.

Leann

So many people don't have intake systems. So again, communication and transparency. That's a huge one for me, I think.

Casey

System’s got her. Got it. Okay, Rob.

Cool. Well, Steve has sold me on his digital PR and being involved in the community, so I don't want to repeat that one, but I do like that one. But if your firm has sort of plateaued, one thing that we're always taught in life is to not be facetious or brag about ourselves, but maybe you look at client success stories and you start to promote and communicate how good you are. Maybe it's time to tell and be a little bit more upfront of all of the good that you've done, all of the people that you've helped, and get those stories out there.

Yeah.

Rob

And really start to kind of stick up for the work that you've done over time and tell the world.

Casey

Yeah, they change people's lives. People need to hear that. Otherwise, they're going to go and find the shitty attorney that is just churning and burning cases, not even potentially even considering taking them to trial, just settling for less because they have a big operational business to run complex when you can really help people. So I love that. That goes back to our core values, the real business stuff. So I dunno. I love this. Guys, thank you so much for joining us today. Hope you had a good time here on the podcast guys, and hope you guys come back.

Steve

Thanks, Casey. It was great. 

Leann

Thanks. 

Rob

Thanks.

Casey

Thanks.